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Grand CherokeeDiesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 States with 2009 Models
Posted by mike on 2007/9/10 9:49:38 (1986) reads

Frank Klegon, Executive Vice President of Product Development at Chrysler LLC, recently posted a blog entry where he discusses the future of diesel engines at Chrysler.

While indicating that adding a diesel option to a vehicle can add $5,000 to the sticker price, he notes that almost a quarter of all American said they'd be interested in one. He also mentions that the average consumer would pay up to $1,500 to get one, so there's quite a gap there.

About the Grand Cherokee CRD (Common Rail Diesel), he notes:

Our current U.S. diesel lineup includes Dodge Sprinter, Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Dodge Ram Heavy Duty. Our BLUETEC Ram Heavy Duty, with a 6.7-liter Cummins Turbo Diesel engine, meets 2010 emissions standards for heavy-duty pickups for all 50 states – three years early!

In addition to the Ram Heavy Duty, Dodge will introduce an all-new Cummins turbodiesel engine in the Ram 1500 after 2009. This new engine will also meet emissions standards in all 50 states. Along with great power and low-end torque, this new engine will provide up to 30 percent improvement in fuel efficiency and up to a 20 percent reduction in CO2 emissions compared to an equivalent gasoline engine.

Here’s another preview of things to come: Starting in model year 2009, the Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel will meet emissions standards in all 50 states, making it another clean-diesel BLUETEC vehicle from Chrysler.

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Poster Thread
jason
Posted: 2007/9/11 14:05  Updated: 2007/9/11 14:05
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/6/30
From: glendale,az
Posts: 93
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
The arguement is there,BUT by 2009 Honda,toyota and nissan will offer a diesel in thier lineup. The ultimate would be a Hybred Diesel...we are still years away on this. I own a 2005 LJ 37's blah blah blah, it gets me 14.5 city, I drive 42 mile round trip. I just bought a used Jetta at my dealer 40mpg+ and I paid $5K below market for the car. I am indeed saving $200 a month and lowered my payment $40 a month....Total savings $240 month. I know this is not the norm, It kills me to drive the Jeep 215 miles a tank compared to my jetta 550+. The issue is a CRD wrangler would get 20 city.25hwy...not really that big of a savings,I like the aspect of using less oil and if everybody used less..the prices would fall...due to less demand....or better yet Bio diesel would really put it to OPEC. For the average consumer Diesel is not the answer..But to guy that drives 45 miles a day +...its a no-brainer

.02

Jason

Poster Thread
AKjeep
Posted: 2007/9/10 14:47  Updated: 2007/9/10 14:47
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2006/10/25
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 37
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Okay, so this logic might be flawed but I'm going to make an arguement for buying a diesel here.

My first point will be that the diesel will have a longer life span than the gasoline engine by about 200000 miles or so.

Assuming that the price of gasoline and diesel stay around the same level, I think one can see their return on investment met before 170,000 miles. historically the price of gas has gone nothing but "up". This leads me to believe we might see gas hit $3.50-$4.00 a gallon soon. This is going to make that 1700gal gap a lot bigger in terms of $$$.

couldn't these new "clean" diesel be certified as low-emission-vehicles? thus making more green friendly. I think you can still get a tax credit.

my last point doesn't count for a whole lot but, who doesn't love gobs of low end torque?

Poster Thread
MarkH
Posted: 2007/9/11 6:55  Updated: 2007/9/11 7:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/20
From: The Great White North
Posts: 494
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Not to belabor the points, but, what the heck...

1) The new ULSD diesels may still "last longer" than gas engines, but chances are greater that --at some point-- you'll have to shell out some extra cash to replace all those pollution control (PC) goodies that help make the ULSD diesels so "clean". And, most people ain't gonna be drivin' their "luxury" GCs for 300-400,000 miles!


2) Gas & diesel originate from the same barrel of crude, so when the price of crude increases from our friends at OPEC, gas & diesel prices go up, too. Occasionally, one will lag the other for a short time, depending on refining capacity and demand... but the price fluctuations have tracked pretty closely in the past...

3) LEV tax credit for diesels? That would be nice, but I don't see Congress clammoring for it. Diesels have historically been a "dirty" word in Washington... Hopefully that changes.

Poster Thread
Jeepin
Posted: 2007/9/11 10:26  Updated: 2007/9/11 10:26
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/28
From: TX
Posts: 190
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
regarding #1... yeah, most folks aren't going to be driving their CRD-powered luxo utes for probably even 100,000 miles, but the vehicles will last a lot longer overall, meaning more usage in the used car market (meaning fewer vehicles in scrap yards), plus they should higher residual values vs their petrol counterparts.

regarding #2... diesel prices may track with gas prices to an extent, but they only fluctuate a fraction of what gas prices do. Diesel hasn't changed more than 15 cents either way here in the last year and a half. I've seen gas prices change that much of the course of 2 days, and jump up or down 50+ cents in the span of 3 months.

I think that's what irritates me more than the actual price -- that the price just jumps around so much and so far. In June regular gas was over $3/gal here, probably closer to $3.10 on average. Now in the first part of September I've seen it as low as $2.57/gal. And I know that come next summer, it'll shoot right back up to over $3/gal over the course of only about 8 weeks...

Poster Thread
sylvanis
Posted: 2007/9/11 23:02  Updated: 2007/9/11 23:02
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/1/26
From:
Posts: 116
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Gas prices changing so much? Are you in WI with me? We have the lame..."reformulated" blend for summer. This means that while the rest of the country uses the same gas, like 4 states (WI included), we get jacked for extra $ while the refineries 'change over' to the new formulas.

What a freaking crock...as it is we're paying too much in taxes. Glad that they repealed the "Automatic Gas Tax Increase" that happened every year. At least now my state reps and state senators have to go on the record and vote to raise my gas taxes every year....

sorry for the rant.

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Josephus
Posted: 2007/9/11 10:28  Updated: 2007/9/11 10:31
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/18
From: Pennsylvania
Posts: 265
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
My goal here is to share what i've found, not bash anyone.
1.) There are other advantages to diesels beside the 30-40% fuel savings.
Less stopping to refuel. Our time is money.
Longer oil change intervals.
More useful torque for low RPM cruising or rock-crawling.
Towing.
2.) Barrels O' Crude - in the same barrel of crude you will get 20% more diesel, because gasoline by definition is more highly refined petroleum product = waste.
3.) LEV tax credits - The 3.0L CRD is based on the Mercedes 3.0 Bluetec engine, which is slated for a $1300 tax credit. What's the hold-up on the Jeep CRD = |-|ell if I know.

BioDiesel is made from American grown soybeans, and unlike Flex-Fuelers doesn't compete for high demand corn products. I like the idea of keeping our US dollars right here in our American farms, instead of flushing them down to OPEC.

The Mercedes 3.0L sure is a lot more quite than my old 7.3L PowerStroke.

Poster Thread
MarkH
Posted: 2007/9/11 10:52  Updated: 2007/9/11 11:01
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/20
From: The Great White North
Posts: 494
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Great discussions!

Here's a link to ACEEE's latest table of tax credits for LEVs:
LEV TAX Credits

BTW, don't get me wrong, I'd love a diesel* in the JK! Make it a $2000 option and I'm in! Love the extra ft-lbs!

(*once I'm confident that the new ULSD engines won't be causing any unforeseen maintenance issues...)

For those who like lots of numbers, here's a chart of diesel versus gasoline regional prices:
Diesel versus gasoline prices

I don't disagree that diesel prices may fluctuate less than gas, but the American public doesn't perceive diesel as a "bargain" ... just check out the regional prices & it's easy to see why!
...And that's what it's going to take to get widespread acceptance of diesels in the U.S.

Poster Thread
MarkH
Posted: 2007/9/10 10:07  Updated: 2007/9/10 10:11
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/20
From: The Great White North
Posts: 494
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
I'd like a diesel, but not for a $5000 premium. By my rough estimates, assuming both gas & diesel cost $3/gallon, and a diesel GC gets ~25mpg, while gas GC gets ~20mpg, it would take 'til 170,000 miles just to get to break even --all else being equal.

Of course there are many other factors which will inevitably be debated in this string... but let's just look at the fuel cost/mileage aspect for now...

At that point a gas GC will have consumed 8500gal(@20mpg), and a diesel would consume 6800 gal (@25mpg). The difference is 1700gal, or ~$5000 (@$3/gal). So, at 170,000mi, it's a wash! That's sure not the way to get Americans to "embrace" diesels! NO THANX.

Then again, I guess anyone dishing out $35-45 for a GC diesel doesn't mind as much...

Poster Thread
Josephus
Posted: 2007/9/10 11:08  Updated: 2007/9/10 11:08
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/18
From: Pennsylvania
Posts: 265
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
On the Overland model (a little pricey to start with at $45,800) the CRD is only a $2000 option over the 5.7 Hemi which is standard.
On the Limited model (still a little to exthpensive for me at $35,400) the CRD is a $3700 option from the 4.7L Flex-Fuel V8.
Personally, I'd gladly pay that much for the CRD. I'd begrudgingly do it at $5000, but as Mark indicated the ROI is much longer.
If Jeep really wants to further the environmental advantages, they'll start with low pricing for the masses, and do something like a 'twin-turbo" for the big bucks.
Everywhere else in the world you can get every model Jeep makes in a diesel. It would be GREAT if Jeep could make this Ward's 10 engine available in the Wranglers, Commander and maybe even the new Liberty for the US!

Poster Thread
Jeepin
Posted: 2007/9/10 12:24  Updated: 2007/9/10 12:24
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/11/28
From: TX
Posts: 190
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Not to pick on you Mark, but you bring up an excellent point. The low ROI for many diesels right now turns people away (somehow they don't seem to factor that in when looking at hybrids though...), which only goes to show that people are really more concerned with their pocket books and/or appearance (ooh, look at me driving a hybrid, I'm so environmentally conscious.) than the environment. They're still not willing to put their money where their mouths are.

30% increase in fuel economy? "Yeah, sounds great!" Ok, that's a $3,700 upgrade... "Oooh, yeah, I don't care about the environment THAT much...".

In this area at least, diesel has historically been cheaper than 87-octane up until the last year or so (when we bought our truck Memorial Day 2006 it was still 5-10 cents cheaper than regular gas). Don't most hybrids require Premium fuel? Diesel prices are also far more stable than gas prices. AND most modern diesel engines can run on biodiesel (Chyrco does, or did, fill their diesels with B5 from the factory), which is a FAR better 'alternative' fuel than E85. Heck, you can make biodiesel out of used cooking oil from fast food joints (how's THAT for recycling!). I've even seen a few CTDs running on pure veggie oil.

Diesel cars get comparable if not better fuel economy than their hybrid counter parts, without the added complexity, weight, and questionable environmental impact of battery packs (nickel mining say what?). And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say a diesel car will last WAY longer than a hybrid.

Thankfully though, it seems that the diesel movement is gaining momentum. Now we've just got to expand the diesel infrastructure and increase biodiesel production and research.

Ok, sorry for the rant!

Poster Thread
MarkH
Posted: 2007/9/10 13:26  Updated: 2007/9/10 13:58
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/20
From: The Great White North
Posts: 494
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Even if I got a diesel as a no-cost option, I think I might pass on it for a couple of model years...

I work in the OEM powertrain industry, and I'm skeptical whether the problems related to ULSD (the recent switch from S500 to S15) have been adequately addressed. Only time will tell. Just use one or two loads of S500 (or any mix of S15 & S500) by mistake (like a refinery or distribution screw up), and that new Bluetec everyone's creaming about might wind up in the dealer's service shop for a few days...

I'll wait for a couple years & let everyone else do the "beta testing".

I'm not convinced the majority of Americans are so "eco-friendly". It's low on my list. I just want a reliable torquey powertrain that keeps me away from the service shop --like the old 4.0L I6. I can buy a lot of extra gas by saving even one trip to the service shop!

I'm convinced, if someone produced a fuel made from dolphins & baby seal blood, with the same MPGs, that spit out 5X the pollutants, BUT cost 20 cents less a gallon, you'd have endless lines of cars waiting over an hour in line to save a buck!

The same goes for diesel. If the government really wants to get serious about Americans buying more diesels, just find a way to get the price 25-50cents a gallon cheaper and the demand for diesel vehicles will soar, whether it's B5 "bio-diesel" or not. For most people (aside from Californians) that's the bottom line.

Poster Thread
UF92134
Posted: 2007/9/11 9:01  Updated: 2007/9/11 9:01
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/5/23
From: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 4
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
At today's U.S. gas prices, it might take 170,000 miles to reach the break even point for the diesel engine, but if gas costs as much as it does in Europe ($6+ per gallon), the break even point would be less than 85,000 miles.

Poster Thread
MarkH
Posted: 2007/9/11 9:40  Updated: 2007/9/11 9:40
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/20
From: The Great White North
Posts: 494
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Which is exactly why Europeans clammor for fuel efficient diesels and most Americans don't.

Poster Thread
Josephus
Posted: 2007/10/9 23:19  Updated: 2007/10/9 23:19
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/7/18
From: Pennsylvania
Posts: 265
 Re: Diesel Grand Cherokee to Meet Emissions in All 50 Sta...
Mark's $5000 price is not accurate.
The price range for the CRD option is $1800-$3700 depending on trim levels.
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