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CommanderJeep Commander Photo
Posted by mike on 2005/3/14 0:00:00 (9296) reads

Here it is - we think.

Jeep Commander photo from Detroit Free Press

We haven't received permission to run this scan yet, but with a number of other sites posting it, we think we're in the clear. What do you think of the design? Post a Reader Reaction below.

Either way, we should know in less than 2 weeks, when the Commander is supposed to debut in New York.

Reader Reactions

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Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Dan

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Dan
Beijing Jeep all the way.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: dale
here is my comment looks like its a strech job and low ground clearance looks a little a cherokee but to low dale

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Swamp Thing
"Why you would you want to open the tail gate in a twisted up situation is beyond me. Maybe to get your camera out of the back for a poser flex shot?"

No, to load my groceries, while parked in my supermarket's "Jeeps Only" parking spot (the spot where the plow leaves the snow piled up 4 ft. high after each blizzard).

So there.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Renegade
I'll tell you the truth. I saw the first photo and almost puked. The I decided to express myself but I decided to read a few of the posts. I got a ways down and read one about seeing it jacked up with a wench and brush guards yadda yadda yadda. As I continued to read I tried to imagine it and began to like the idea myself. It was actually growing on me. I tried to picture myself in one and I realized something...

I was fantasizing about a friggin Rescue.

D@*&, can't DC do anything right? I undestand the box utility argument and sure H1, H2, LRs, RR, and a whole host of other SUVs are box in shape. And I'm okay with that. Let let's remember, Rescue was a box, too. I'm really not into this one. Sure, it's nostalgic and whatnot but I think that those who loved the Cherokee's styling would go for the Rescue's. I mean, am I the only one who noticed the 'subtle' hint of retro in the Rescue's design? I don't really like it, much like how I don't like the look of the new GC and much like how I'm not too hot on the look of the Liberty. But I still keep seeing 'em all over the place so maybe this one will sell, too. I'm on the fence over that one. What I do know is that I WILL NOT spend a dime on one of these. I'll stuff as many baby seats as I can into the back of my Wrangler.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: 66coronet
The new comander looks like a modified 1987 jeep wagoneer. Stacked head lights and all.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Extremtj
here is my comment:

I think it is pretty ugly. That comeing from a die hard Jeep fan to boot. They should have leened more towards the lines of the Rescue or Gladiator. The commander looks more like a Range Rover than a Jeep.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jeepaustralia
here is my comment
It looks like a big XJ, which was their most popular model world wide. It makes sense to build on that and make the brand stronger. If you don't like the box shape, buy a Grand or a Cherokee(Liberty).

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Wayne
I hope the new Commander sells like hot cakes.
We could all use the extra laughs on the road.
It might cure road rage because we'd all be in hysterics.
If you want tough and reliable, buy Japanese.
End of story. Will 'Mike' print this?

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: peroej
WOW that Jeep 2500 looks great. Can we import that to the states? I curse the day I sold my 01 Cherokee.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Alex
First of all like I said the XJ does get funky when you really twist it not just driving on a gravel drive way (so go get a KIA buddy). My Jeep XJ was a 2000 Classic with OME springs, ARB Bumper, with a 9,000lb winch and rock protection all around. Trust me even on a slight flex you cannot close the rear tailgate if you open it. Secondly OnlyOneJeep if you were able to read as well as you seem to be able to rebuke other Jeepers OPINIONS you would have noticed along with various literary errors I also mentioned that I SOLD Jeeps and therefore was required to go to seminars. Thirdly as a pilot I know that a squeak can mean death, now I know that means I am much more touchy about rattles, noises, etc. but my point is that I loved my Cherokee but even with the stiffening of the frame in 1997, as someone mentioned, it was still a poor design. Those rattles and squeaks are the welds in the "uniframe" popping and rubbing not just trim rubbing. I just expect more! I love Jeeps, I sold Jeeps because I loved them so much, and even with all the crazy things I saw as a salesman (maintenance issues and poor quality control) I still love them, I just want them to be better and you should too

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Sean M.
Too true, just because a vehicle has squeeks from interior trim does not mean it's a bad design or undependable vehicle.

As far as comparing a Land Rover to a Jeep you might as well sell your Jeeps and drive buy Land Rovers then because a Jeep is never going to be a Land Rover, THANK GOD! They are in a completely different class and price range. $20K for a loaded XJ and $40K for a Land Rover... yeah there better be something worth that extra $15K!

Also, the XJ was re-designed in 1997. The chassis was stiffened and tailgate completely redesigned. Yes, you can open the tail gate when twisted up and yes it does close better than the older models. Why you would you want to open the tail gate in a twisted up situation is beyond me. Maybe to get your camera out of the back for a poser flex shot? :)

Let's face it, everyone is so anti-DC that anything they come up with will be hated and rediculed. Why not wait until the thing can be touched and driven before passing judgement, pictures do not do any vehicle justice.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Mike
Keep this in mind when considering JEEP Gas Mileage...

Oil production has peaked, while oil consumption is continuing to rise.

Oil companies do not expect to find any more new reserves anytime soon, so, as of this decade, our oil supplies will be dwindling.

Gas prices are hampered by taxes, but what many don't realize is that due to E.P.A. laws, no new oil refineries are being built in the U.S. As you can guess they are being built overseas.

So, not only do we have to import our oil, we now have to import refined products such as gasoline, also.

U.S. oil is not of a high enough quality to produce high octane gas, so increasing U.S. production will not solve the problem anyway, besides, we need out own oil to act as a reseerve for times of war, so, importing oil still makes sense.

Since Diesel fuel uses a less-involved refining process, more diesel fuel can be produced from a barrel of oil than gasoline.

The United States has a limitless supply of coal, which can be converted into naturel gas and/or hydrogen fuel, but most vehicles do not have a dual fuel option to run gaseous alternate fuels.

Some newer vehicles are able to run on E85 (85% Ethanol) fuel, but there is low availability of E85 on the open market.

I do not condone the use or growing of Cannabis, however, I do feel that the U.S. laws can be relaxed a LITTLE, to allow the growing of non- Tetra-hydra-cannabanoid (THC)-producing Hemp plants, which can be used to produce Ethanol and Biodiesel.

Hydrogen does not exist as H2 in nature, so energy must be SPENT to convert H2O to H2, which is combusted back to H2O.

Internal combustion engines do not have as great of range when running on alternate fuels such as methane, propane, hydrogen, ethanol/methanol, although they run cleaner.

Diesel engines perform as well, or better when they run on Biodiesel.

It is estimated that the United States could convert its entire production of organic waste and garbage into biodiesel fuel and have enough left to EXPORT, instead if dumping it into land-fills.

Ther Stirling engine is an external combustion engine, which does not need expensive, bulky and heavy on-board equipmnet to burn multiple fuels (including diesel and gasoline). A Stirling engine is more efficient and burns all fuels cleaner than an IC engine, and could be used to produce electricity to power a hybrid vehicle.

Considering this info, ask yourselves again if Mileage in a JEEP is immportant...

Mabye JEEP should produce a Treo-like vehicle, which uses a Stirling engine to produce electricity from multiple fuels, both liquid and gaseous, to powerhigh-torque electric motors at each wheel.




Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Holycraodad
Jeep needed to stay with the round headlights, this aint no Landcruiser wanna be Its a JEEP for tootn sake......

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: BulletBob
Personally, I don't think it is the real thing but
perhaps a tantalizing hint.

I think in the DC's mind, unveiling the real thing at a big splashy show like in New York City is extremely important rather than dribbling out tidbits that get mixed with wishful thinking for a thoroughly phoney picture of things.

The picture looks like a morph to me, either with a computer image, or a misleading assemblance of plastic and metal.

The front-end of that thing is just degenerate. I can't believe DC would have spent that much money on all the aspects of manufacturing it especially in such a competitive marketpplace only to have the exterior design be so lame.

Of course, the mechanicals are pretty much unknown, too, other than what has trickled out.
None of the stuff thus far has been set in cement and is subject to change.

I still would be a bit surprised if the Cummins diesel isn't offered, an already highly proven and popular engine. Cruising in a Jeep Commander
getting 25+ miles per gallon would indeed be impressive.


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Chris
That is the worst looking Jeep I have ever seen. Are they trying to put a new face on the word "boring"???


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Sean M.
I kind of like it! But it looks very similar, styling wise, to the Chineese Cherokee... aka: 2500

http://www.beijing-jeep.com/images/bj2003_001.jpg

Come on DC, you can be more creative than this!


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Lenny
I think it looks a lot like a big XJ Cherokee.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Jeep Fan
The old cherokee was a tremendously successful vehicle and had a large following with public service agencies e.g. police, border patrol. This might be well directed to those agencies who need a such a vehicle. Or, this might also be nicely targeted for large families living in rural areas that don't need the citified automatic-everything Grand Cherokee. Don't be too hard on the boxy shape as it provides the maximum usable space and the true utility of not being rained-on when the window is opened. But, given current fuel prices and the likely heft of this vehicle, it would really benefit from the new V6 diesel that Jeep is offering everywhere other than north america. I would not be in the market for such a large vehicle, but it is good to see Jeep getting back to the utility that made it so successful in the past.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: COMMANDO WILLIE
here is my comment, It is a obvious throw back to
the small 1984 introduced CHEROKEE. I like the
look of it, except for the head light buckets. Man
are they "UGLY". That alone would keep me from buying it. Lets hope that mechanicaly its worthy of the "JEEP" name, and tradition. "BODY ON FRAME
FOREVER.
OSS OVERS NEVER!"

COMMANDO WILLIE

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
As for "Classic" Jeep styling until I see a Commander in person; I would honestly say my hard-earned $$ would be better served buying a MINT '89-'91 Grand Wagoneer from Texas for $12-$16K than for that thing. The design is growing on me.... bad (like a boil). All the suckers who buy this junk (H2,H3,'05 GC, Commander) will get their "just desserts"....

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Jon
that should be xkjeeps.com

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Rebel97
I'm a Jeep guy from the word go,BUT....can you say.....FUGLY!!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Jon
This photo is old news. Check out the "official" photo on xkjeep.com.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
awe..gee!! I made a mistake; Oh, Darling.....I meant DIDN'T or HAVE NOT Benefitted. You probably shoot the links too, right...damn Golfers..Go Buy a Buick....................

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
Don't forget Sean M; BOTH Land Rover AND JEEP have the same Humble beginnings....and transgressions....i.e. Both sourced with GM/Buick powertrain and bin-sharing with other makes. When L.Rovers/R.Rovers were IMPORTED w/tacky bolt-on reverse lights and other Fed requirements..they all of a sudden became "The Rage"...where Jeep has ALWAYS Been there...not just a fad (at least in the Continental US)...

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Mike
Keep this in mind when considering JEEP Gas Mileage...

Oil production has peaked, while oil consumption is continuing to rise.

Oil companies do not expect to find any more new reserves anytime soon, so, as of this decade, our oil supplies will be dwindling.

Gas prices are hampered by taxes, but what many don't realize is that due to E.P.A. laws, no new oil refineries are being built in the U.S. As you can guess they are being built overseas.

So, not only do we have to import our oil, we now have to import refined products such as gasoline, also.

U.S. oil is not of a high enough quality to produce high octane gas, so increasing U.S. production will not solve the problem anyway, besides, we need out own oil to act as a reseerve for times of war, so, importing oil still makes sense.

Since Diesel fuel uses a less-involved refining process, more diesel fuel can be produced from a barrel of oil than gasoline.

The United States has a limitless supply of coal, which can be converted into naturel gas and/or hydrogen fuel, but most vehicles do not have a dual fuel option to run gaseous alternate fuels.

Some newer vehicles are able to run on E85 (85% Ethanol) fuel, but there is low availability of E85 on the open market.

I do not condone the use or growing of Cannabis, however, I do feel that the U.S. laws can be relaxed a LITTLE, to allow the growing of non- Tetra-hydra-cannabanoid (THC)-producing Hemp plants, which can be used to produce Ethanol and Biodiesel.

Hydrogen does not exist as H2 in nature, so energy must be SPENT to convert H2O to H2, which is combusted back to H2O.

Internal combustion engines do not have as great of range when running on alternate fuels such as methane, propane, hydrogen, ethanol/methanol, although they run cleaner.

Diesel engines perform as well, or better when they run on Biodiesel.

It is estimated that the United States could convert its entire production of organic waste and garbage into biodiesel fuel and have enough left to EXPORT, instead if dumping it into land-fills.

Ther Stirling engine is an external combustion engine, which does not need expensive, bulky and heavy on-board equipmnet to burn multiple fuels (including diesel and gasoline). A Stirling engine is more efficient and burns all fuels cleaner than an IC engine, and could be used to produce electricity to power a hybrid vehicle.

Considering this info, ask yourselves again if Mileage in a JEEP is immportant...

Mabye JEEP should produce a Treo-like vehicle, which uses a Stirling engine to produce electricity from multiple fuels, both liquid and gaseous, to power high-torque electric motors at each wheel.




Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: bob
I find it laughable that all you people all of sudden are worring about gas mileage. Since when did Jeep become known for there great gas milage??
The Commander is not going to be that much bigger than a GC and is using the same engine choices.
I for one am glad to see Jeep expand their line-up. Along with the other new vehicle planned they will have the most diverse offering in years. It will give all you even more to complain about. I have never seen a bigger bunch of complainers. All of you can continue to put bandaids on your old piece of crap, worn out Cherokees and YJ's while I am out buying a shiny new Jeep with a bumper to bumper warranty. There is no way Jeep listens to you guys. I can't wait to get my new Commander with all it's toys and take it out on the trails. I may even get a scratch or two and for sure will get muddy!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jason
I was watching the speed channel and in there spy report show pics of a proto type 4 door wrangler of course missing the 2nd door, looked longer and wider and did have solid axles!!!! The show was motor week featuring the dodge powerwagon, it should re-air 12pm pacific/1PM mountain/2PM central/3pm eastern...If some one can tape it then get it posted on the net so we can examin the pics?????

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Wheeler
Picture that thing with a bull-bar/winch, brush gaurd and a roof rack with some offroad lights... the Commander would look pretty sweet jacked up! New project for AEV!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: disappointed
FUGLY........this is behind the game, the rescue or something that look like it would have put them ahead....

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Matador
This is "Back to the Future", we're on 1989 and this is the new Jeep/Isuzu.

No, wake up!

To me this is a mistake, it can be OK for Jeep fans but I don't think that any potential Hummer customer is going to think about getting one.

It's kind of boring. Are you sure that this isn't made in China?

We want (and need) Jeep to be quite succesful.

Will the next Wrangler be sooo boring?


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Wyatt
here is my comment

It would look a lot better if they had used the Jeep Gradiator headlights.

As it is, it's starting to grow on me a little.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: thisisfugly
this is ugly times a billion and stupid loooking billion=george bush=fugly

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: thisisfugly
this is ugly times a billion and stupid loooking billion=george bush=fugly

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: john
here is my commentlooks BORING!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: john
here is my commentlooks BORING!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Thor
That thing is horrible. The idiots at DC get RAVE reviews on the Rescue, and instead they come out with that piece of crap?

Somebody there needs to be fired.

I want a stripped down utility version of the Rescue with a Cummins turbo BIOdiesel engine.

Not some plush Hummer wanna be, not some retro crap, but a Wrangler on steriods.

$30K - $35K for a utility (not fancy) version of the Rescue would FLY off the shelves.

Wake up DC.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Renegade
Apparently the look also facilitates typos. Sheesh.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: El Alumbrado
Bland, non-descript, anonymous, boring, 1980's-reject. Try again.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: RUBICONTRAIL.NET
Swamp Thing, you are right... the actual Jeep specifications list the Cherokee construction as Steel Unibody:

http://www.xjjeeps.com/manuals/2001_specifications.pdf

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: WTJ
I think Land Rover, with the new LR3 (Discovery 3) and
subsequent models, has utilized the best-balanced construction
approach for on-road/off-road superiority by combining a
monocoque body on top of a true frame. On-road performance
is achieved by a stiff monocoque; and off-road performance is
maximized through a sturdy frame.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Laughable
That's my point... he makes it sound like the unibody was put together w/ rivets.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Swamp Thing
"t is called a "uniframe" not unibody they are two very different things. The unibody being sections of a vehicle front, center, rear, put together to make a body (body panels and all). Uniframe is a frame built as a frame throughout the entire structure to make a skeleton to which body panels are attached. Thereby, using the word frame when discussing the XJ is correct. Now read this again to make sure you got it all."

Actually, Jeep's Uniframe is Unibody construction (more properly known as "monocoque"), designed for AMC by Renault and first appearing in the XJ platform. The Uniframe difference is (relatively thin) rail sections welded across the lateral body seams for extra stiffness. Subsequent iterations (ZJ, YJ, KJ, WK) feature somewhat more substantial rail sections for improved stiffness.

The rail sections are merely support members. If one were to separate the rail sections from the body, one would not have a complete frame. Therefore it is misleading to say that the XJ has a frame of any kind.

Crawl under an XJ and see what's there to make sure you understand this.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
just another snake oil salesman to me.........sorry, I have little sympathy for anyone required to dress proper (like a wake)..in suit and tie to sell a vehicle MEANT to get dirty and worn. And as far as seminars and other feel good charades to sell or hawk, that is...being a duty of your profession; well, if you don't ALREADY know the details and quirks of your product...NO seminar or training will be good enough. It's funny-certainly most if not all the Jeep salespersons in OUR area seemed to have benefitted from attending them.....LOL- see YOU on the trail!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: XJameson
Hahaha, RTN, funny you should mention that. I had a 96 Cherokee with the upcountry and coming home from camping one year i hit a cross-culvert on a dirt road and my buddy behind me swore I got all four wheels at least six inches off the ground. Ever since then my tailgate needs quite slam to close all the way.

God I love that Jeep.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Stacy G
I was hoping to see a tougher looking vehicle. I currently own a Wrangler and a Grand Cherokee, but definitely would not buy one of these. This is very generic looking.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jason
Did anyone besides me and carter see the wrangler prototype on motorweek????? I should have it on tape by tomorrow. The pics are nowhere on the net???

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Carter
Well said Alex!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: JT
It looks like a Jeep is supposed to look,
not like the sissy Liberty. If you want rounded plastic go buy a saturd..

Awesome I think we need a giant XJ.

Hummers are for posers.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Sheesh...
"They are loosing their way, but it's not to late to come back"

Do you mean they are LOSING their way, but it's not TOO late to come back?

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Corey
GACK! It looks like an on XJ with a growth hormone problem. Please tell me that styling cues from 1983 are not coming back! DC needs to get off the corporate merry-go-round and let the Jeep folks make JEEPS - not overgrown fugly Durangos. They are loosing their way, but it's not to late to come back. The new Wrangler should have been released LONG before this abomination.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Frederic Gionet

I don't really think this is legit, as if you look under the front section of the truck, you see a hump....which tends towards a rigid front axle. Can't see DC going back to such a setup.

If it is indeed representative of the new Commander, well I have to admit that DC yet again overwhelmed us with great flashy prototypes (Gladiator, Rescue, etc.) and delivered a product which seemed out of place in the current market.

I sincerely hope they don't make such a mistake....or if they do they repent themselves with a better than great 2007 Wrangler.

Good luck DC ....you may need it.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jason
The headlamps are wrong, I would expect something like the jeep liberty renegade headlamps and grill. I showed these pics to someone that actual has seen the pre-production commander, they also said the sides are wrong in the front, but the overall design looks like a old cherokee. I think these photos are based on the spy pics. Dcx would have all these removed if they were pics of the "Real" commander!!!! Good try though

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: epic
Wheeler got it right, put some 33's on there, raise it up a bit, do something with the headlights, a safari rack and lights, bull guard and so forth and you've got the ultimate family off-roader. It could use a little fixing to make it look right and lets hope that when the real one is revealed it will have those fixes. Let AEV get ahold of it and I think we will really like this thing.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Bill
For some reason to me it looks like one of those sad Chinese Jeepish vehicles (styling rip offs) that are so common on their soil. I'm not so sure I like it. However, seeing it in person will help me make a better determination. And besides are we sure this is the exact vehicle they will produce?

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Alex

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: RUBICONTRAIL.NET
Uniframe = Unibody Welded To Frame Rails

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: learn2read
It is called a "uniframe" not unibody they are two very different things. The unibody being sections of a vehicle front, center, rear, put together to make a body (body panels and all). Uniframe is a frame built as a frame throughout the entire structure to make a skeleton to which body panels are attached. Thereby, using the word frame when discussing the XJ is correct. Now read this again to make sure you got it all.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Jon
if they make it for 20 years they will

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: 1983-2001
2,884,172 Cherokees to be exact!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Sean M.
I wonder if Jeep sends salesmen to seminars any still? The guys i have dealt with know far less about Jeeps than i do... one even told me that the Cherokee Sport i was looking at had a stong v6 engine!!!

Seems to me most problems with the Cherokee unibody were more related to quality control than design, even the strongest design would squeek and rattle if not welded correctly. Besides, i like the spot in my passenger floor board that you can pop with your foot... it's kinda like one those dice poppers that come with board games and cam be entertaining on long trips! :)

If the build quality of the Commander, or any other model, is poor then they will have the same problems. Anyway, if you can hear the squeeks and rattles either get a louder stereo or louder mud tires. :) I agree, there is much room for improvement over the XJ, but it was an overall great vehicle with a million sold to prove it. Let's see if DC sells a million Commanders.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: welder
...plus , correct me if im wrong, but I dont think those popping sounds were the welds in the unibody anyway, they were probably from the suspension. Poly-bushings, coil spring stresses, shifting in leafs from the rear springs, and pretty much any "wheeled" suspension will pop when flexed. I dont think the XJ would have passed any type of highway safety if the unibody came apart so easily while merely flexing.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: welder
I think Alex wrote welds, not rivets...

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Laughable
"Cherokee but even with the stiffening of the frame in 1997, as someone mentioned, it was still a poor design"

Unibody means no frame, Mr. Salesman (and try to sell anyone on the idea that the boxed sheetmetal is a proper frame). I think you needed to hit a few more seminars. And the "Uniframe" wasn't put together w/ rivets, chucklehead.




Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jason
Has anyone got the photos of the 2007 wrangler spy pics from motorweek???? I have very bad ones I should have betters ones later this week.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Alex
Lastly I think that DC has some great things going on with Dodge, I would be shocked if they didn't make the Commander awesome. Look at the Magnum and the Nitro. I think this is just a good fake. Lets hope I am right.
Here's to Jeeps, God love them, even with their rattles and their squeaks.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: RUBICONTRAIL.NET
As far as the "squeaks" go... my Cherokee developed its first noticeable squeak at about 95,000 miles. This was not 95,000 miles of just neighborhood driving but 95,000 miles of 70mph+ highway driving, one cross-country trip, and plenty of off-roading. It is on it's second set of tires, it's second set of brakes, and the only problems it has had were a damaged rear shock (caused by plowing it into a rock) and a broken heater core (which occured after the vehicle went airborne while off roading).

I personally don't feel that is bad for a vehicle that was never marketed as a luxury vehicle.


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Scott
Looks like a big Volvo. They're boxy but they're
good.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: dissapointed joe
DOODIE......what a mistake...they're losing me altogether...had 2 grand cherokee limited's...new one's OK...was hoping the Commander would be better.

it's DOODIE!!!!!!!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OhMyGawd
That's the first time I have read anything from OOJ that actually makes sense! Finally the truth comes out! It is time to stop blaming DCX and start blaming the guys in Washington DC.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Richard
BulletBob said:
"Of course, the mechanicals are pretty much unknown, too, other than what has trickled out.
None of the stuff thus far has been set in cement and is subject to change."

There is a very complete list of the Commander final production features and options on the XKJeeps.com web page. If past history is any indication the info on that site is 99% accurate.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
To respond to "What About BOB"....Buy your baubles baby...I'll Keep my Tried n' True YJ, ZJ and soon to be XJ. Many here comment about the obvious unstabililty with the fuel-(crisis) just on the horizon. Probably isn't too far from the truth. When the US Federal Safety Zealots (NHTSA)..FORCE our auto industry to dumbproof anything that rolls on the road; when the CARB or EPA fools decide that emissions requirements are so stringent that the most if not all of the durable,economy- minded motors of the past 50 years are all of a sudden unclean or inefficient.....developing nations like China or India are the lucky consumers who benefit. Bejjing Jeep..STILL produces our beloved XJ (Jeep 2500) 4.0 and all! 2.5 and all! Diesel and all! the Grand Cherokee(Super Cherokee/Grand Cherokee) still lives on (2004 forever, baby!)...The powers that be in this country (lawyers,politicians,CEO's) sold us out..the rest of the world benefits...and what do we get? Overpriced Fuel,Overpriced and Ugly Jeeps and High Taxes.....That Damn Jeep 2500 is OUR great old Cherokee, thrown to the side like a forgotten rug. It's a shame.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: petethelefty
Assuming the Commander would be in the same price range as LR3, I'd take the LR3 based on looks. The Commander, at least in these photos, doesn't look like a 40 grand+ luxo suv to me. Honestly, I think the styling of my 00 XJ is more inspired.
But then again I'll have to wait to make final judgement when these trucks show up at my local dealership.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: WOW
Its kinda sorta UGLY....cannot believe all the build up and hype was for this ugly duckling.....

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: YJ Jeeper
The newspaper pic and the pics shown on XKJeeps.com are very different. The fenders, portions of the front end, as well as the width of the vehicle differ. Those photos almost look computer generated. I wonder if the new pics shown on XKJeeps.com were just conceptual renderings. I think the version we will see in a couple of weeks will look like the photo posted on this site.

The Rescue was a cool concept, but who needs another HUMMER roaming the streets? Great vehicle to derive styling for future Jeeps, however. Forget HUMMER customers, they wouldnt amount to anything on paper for DC even if they all switched to Jeep. Id be worried if Jeep started atracting HUMMER customers.

I think the Commander will be a practical seven-seater that boasts some good power with not-so-bad gas mileage whos style represents classic Jeep heritage and functionality and a departure from the present day DC influence. Now if the seats fold down flat like the classic XJ, you'd have some great utility capability. Great job Jeep, I like it!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Here is my comment
I think they should have built the Rescue instead!!!!!!!!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Dan
Heavily influenced by Beijing Jeep:
http://www.beijing-jeep.com/images/bj2003_001.jpg

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: RUBICONTRAIL.NET
My airborne experience was while driving along a forest road in VA. It was up and down but pretty much a straight stretch. I had decided to bit of Rally style driving when I hit one of the rises at a pretty decent clip and all four wheels left the ground. Everything that was sitting in the front seat ended up in the back cargo area, and my backpack that was in the cargo area came to the front. Apparently the shock of coming back down was enough to damage the heater core but everything else survived just fine.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: OnlyOneJeep
Alex, did you ever think behind your hauty self view like maybe SOME people like squeaks??? I don't judge a vehicle's durability because of some loose gremlin somewhere onboard. Give me a break. My Jeeps have NEVER givin me any trouble;EVER! Except for routine maintenance. And as far as needing or attending workshops or seminars in order to know how to sell a Jeep.....in my opinion THAT shows you don't know your "arse" from a tea kettle......Sqeaks...give me a freakin' break...........................

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Alex
Washington didn't make that bumper, those headlamps and that "Commander". Even a pinto can "look" good with a lift a rack and some mud tires. Get real! I had a Cherokee and I loved it, but heaven forbid try to open the tailgate when you are flexed out. You might just launch yourself off a cliff. And if you don't know what I am talking about and you own a Cherokee just sell it and buy a Kia because you are giving real Jeepers and bad rep. After two years my Cherokee squeaked worse than Bill Clinton before the Jury. "Define sexual relations." Define a Jeep! When I sold Jeeps, at every single conference we were taught to sell Jeeps based on the durability and the fact the solid axles were far superior to IFS. I wonder how they pass the time now. They probably spend hours reviewing the latest prototype they will never build. Durability, just try that one on the many disappointed Jeepers that have been the shop again and again because they can't even roll up their damn windows. DC probably has the worst manufacturer of relays in the world. I have a Land Rover and it is 8 years old, it doesn't squeak and my relays don't start rattling like a bird is trapped under my dash every time the temperature drops. Jeep get a clue, you lost your arse to lets see, every other care manufacturer on the mid-size SUV market when you didn't make the Dakar. Ford finally made a Full-Size SUV and they are raking in the dough. Just because DC should have made the Commander ten years ago doesnít' mean it should look like it was!! When is Jeep finally going to make Jeeps again? Please don't think I don't appreciate the Rubicon and the Unlimited but for Peteís' sake put four wheel steering and a V-8 Hemi and make it worth the $32,000 we have to pay for a Rubicon Unlimited. And please please don't screw up the new 2007 Jeep Wrangler Four Door so that I can buy one I have been waiting a long time!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Hooha
"I can't wait to get my new Commander with all it's toys and take it out on the trails."

I actually kind-of like the Commander, but you'd buy it and take on a trail? Unless you mean a bike trail, I'd seriously reconsider. That weight on IFS, and you're begging for breakage.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: K Burns
here is my comment Can you say Chevy Suburban!!!!!!!!!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Namesaplenty
Looks way to much like the ole Isuzu Trooper, are they gonna use Joe Isuzu to advertise the new jeep and tell us that we can save enough on the purchase to buy an island?????? With gas getting higher every day this big gas hoggs are bout to hit skid row on sales....20mpg and lower vehicles are gonna take a huge hit if gas gets close to $3 a gallon and its coming OPEC is curtailing production and China has increased oil consumption and USA standing still and further depending on other countries to fill our oil needs...we gonna get wacked soon....

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Swamp Thing
It's hotcakes time for DC once again (assuming they don't price this beauty out of their market).

It looks like DC understand that they lost a significant portion of the market when they replaced the wildly popular Cherokee with the Fisher-Price caricature of a 4X4 that is the Liberty.

(Sure, the Liberty has had reasonable sales, but not among former Cherokee owners who point out that even the luxo Grand Cherokee performs better off-road.)

If it looks anything like the photos, the Commander is the Cheroke reborn.

It doesn't look like it would seat 7 though.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Lulak
I thought Chrysler purchased Jeep away from AMC. So a Jeep is
not really a Jeep anymore, using Chrysler engines and Chrysler
technology itís just a piece of metal with a Jeep plate, not like
the good ole Jeep.



Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Horbuckle
Lulak, Your an IDIOT along with several other posters here.....

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Lulak
Jeeprt said "If this is on the level, it is just another nail in Jeep's quick closing coffin. It will be a death well deserved. Put these buffoons out of their misery, the sooner the better. Land Rover, here I come."

I thought Ford purchased LR away from BMW. So a LR is not really a LR anymore, using BMW engines and Ford technology its just a piece of metal with a LR plate, not like the good ole LR.

The commander pic is really ugly but I will need to check in person to see what It really looks like.....


Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: WTJ
I would be just as extremely embarrassed to be seen riding in
this thing as I would in a Chevy H2. The soccer mommies should
like it, though. Land Rover, here I come, too!

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Kit
I would never buy it for obvious reasons (ugly and over priced) but the idea of V8 jeeps coming back is great

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jeeper
Everyone will have to wait until next week when it is introduced at the New York auto show...
but keep in mind.... the exploder has gone back to the box style, the Land Rover has gone back to the box style, The H2 is a box. People still love that box style SUV. Go to xjjeeps.com and take one of those pictures and blow it up and make it a screen saver.. then just look at it for a little while. It grows on you.. There are plenty of people out there that still miss the old xj style.. This should fill that..

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Richard
Quote by: jason - posted Monday, March 14, 2005 at 11:54:05 PM

"I showed these pics to someone that actual has seen the pre-production commander, they also said the sides are wrong in the front, but the overall design looks like a old cherokee. I think these photos are based on the spy pics. Dcx would have all these removed if they were pics of the "Real" commander!!!! Good try though"
-----

Jason, whoever you showed the pics to that claimed to have "seen the pre-production" Commander was lying to you, he/she has NOT seen it. The pics posted on the XKJeeps.com site are real, they are from DCX although look to be from a fax or low res scan. And no, DC would not necessarily have the pics removed, all kinds of pics turn up in advance, to many to try and stop all the time. Besides, DC doesn't really care with the reveal just a week or so away.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jeef
I like the concept and am excited about what it will actually look like. I remember all of the speculation on the KJ's appearance, and it came out a little differently from the artist's conception. I ended up with a 2001 XJ, and was just commenting to my kid today that as much as I love it I would like something a little bigger. This could be it. As far as Land Rovers, a worthy vehicle no doubt, but virtually all my friends who have them are on a first-name basis with their service managers. Some look down on my little old XJ, but they always appreciate me giving them a ride to their shop.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: jeeprt
If this is on the level, it is just another nail in Jeep's quick closing coffin. It will be a death well deserved. Put these buffoons out of their misery, the sooner the better. Land Rover, here I come.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: what the heck
If you don't like the styling, just look at the bright side; it's a good way to get rid of all those extra Cherokee grills laying around.

By the way, Land Rover called, they want their vehicle back.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: CJ, and TJ (x2) owner
When is this supposed to be out?

Briggs Jeep in Manhattan, Kansas just sent me a flyer saying that they would have a "brand new full size Jeep" on display on March 30.

This has to be the Commander, because they're displaying a GC the week before, an Unlimited 2 weeks before, and a
D Liberty 3 weeks before that.

Anyone know if Jeep is planning on dropping these early, or will this just be a pre-production model used to drum up excitement at dealers?

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Alex
Dear Abby,
I hope that this is just a prank and the "Jeep Guys" are really putting a Rescue grill and bumper on it. Hummer would shake in the MTR's if Jeep would wake up and make something like one of their concepts. I have no idea what they are thinking, I might as well throw a Jeep decal on my Yukon XL and call it good.

Signed,

Unhappy Jeeper

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: HEMI x 2
I loved my old 88 Cherokee. This looks just like it. I never cared for the rounded 2nd gen GC. To bad it is built on the 3rd gen GC platform and not a Dodge truck "body on frame" for more towing capacity. That is why I bought a HEMI Durango. The Rescue was built on a modified Ram 2500 platform so there is still the possibility that may be built in the future to compete with the H2. Don't believe the hype of the Hummer, their sales are down and they are now in the position of building smaller vehicles to expand their market.

BTW not all Jeeps have to have a Wrangler front end to look good

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Bryan
I know that retro styling is quite in vogue right now with Ford's Mustang, Pontiac's GTO, Dodge's Charger, et all. However, to bring in the boxiness of the XJ Cherokee is a bad move. Nothing about the Commander makes it look modern. Even the Grand Wagoneer or the Scion XB has more styling than this box on wheels. Why would Jeep want to bring a vehicle as boxy as an H2 or H1 to market. It is just plain Fugly!

I hope DC is trying to pull the wool over all our eyes with this and completely surprise us with a Commander that is stylish and modern.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Michael
here is my comment: I love it; I love the boxy shape, the size, which appears to offer a lot more interior space without getting too big on the outside. I don't care for the square headlights.
This most likely will be my next Jeep as we are slowely outgrowing my WJ.
My hope that DCX will place it not only in the luxury segment, but offer an affordable, low spec "utility" version of the Commander with a real 4x4 with low box, skid plates and why not a turbo diesel engine offered in the over-seas Grands.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: CJ, and TJ (x2) owner
This will sell like hotcakes.

EVERYONE loved the Cherokee styling, this borrows heavily from that.

The GC ain't going to sell real well with this over its shoulder, though.

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: comment
the rescue was sweet but think of what a gas hog it would have been...i like the commander just a jeep and nothing else

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Bill I.
here is my comment

As a Jeep wagon owner from way back, who is looking to replace my 97 Cherokee next year...........I like what I see in the photo. I would hope the reliability would be as good as the XJ however and gas milliage....cost is a concern. It appears to have the room for my growing family, hunting, fishing & camping gear. Also it may be the only current Jeep with rack space to strap down my fishing kayaks with out haing to buy other racks.
Your on the right track ........I tried to like the liberty but it was not for me. I will have to see it in person..........cost and gas milliage will play a big factor and to me 30 thousand is high for this type truck.

I HOPE THEY MAKE A PLAIN RUBBER FLOOR MAT TYPE VALUE PACKAGE FOR US COUNTRY FOLKS ! I DON"T NEED ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES THAT RUN UP THE PRICE AND IN
EASE PROFIT, JUST AUTO,AIR, AM-FM-CD.............IF NOT AVAILABLE IN "PLAIN JEEP"........I WILL WAIT AND BUY USED !

Poster Thread
Anonymous
Posted: 1969/12/31 19:00  Updated: 1969/12/31 19:00
 Originally posted by: Moe
here is my comment: Totally uninspired body, they have got to be kidding.
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